hello this Russell Moore and you're
listening to signposts those who have
have been around me for a while know the
kind of music that I like so you'll
understand what I mean when I say this
when I look back at the year 2017 in my
life I started the year off feeling like
Hank Williams at the end in the back of
the Cadillac headed through West
Virginia and I ended the year feeling a
lot more like Jimmy Buffett hopeful and
happy and and rested and a lot of that
had to do with this
this guest that we're about to have on
the program right now because I was
exhausted I was stretched way way too
thin and in the middle of that a friend
of mine Justin Taylor at the Crossway
publishers I think knew that and he said
hey you might like to read this book
that we're about to publish and so he
sent me the galleys for a book called
reset leave it living a grace paced life
in a burnout culture by by david murray
who's the guest that we have with us
today david murray is professor of Old
Testament and practical theology at
Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary
you have probably read other stuff that
he's written or heard him speak or
preached at a conference or or online as
we he sent me this this book and you
know that's kind of a vulnerable thing
to do to say to somebody hey I think you
probably need to read this book on
burnout but just an edit of confidence I
think that our friendship could take it
that if I had received it badly we would
we would survive but I didn't receive it
badly and I read that book and found it
immensely helpful and then actually in
March of that year went up to Grand
Rapids and met with David he was he was
really gracious to host me in his home
for an entire day as we just sort of
walked through schedule and walked
through issues of life and so I think
there are a lot of you right now
who need to read this book need to hear
some of the things we're going to talk
about right now and there are some of
you who don't yet but you will at some
point later on in your life or you have
somebody in your life who does and so
David thanks so much for being with us
on signpost today also thank you for
that very warm introduction I have no
idea what your musical references we're
everything else I understand yeah it was
a blessing for me to meet with you to
Russell and yes in all these situations
we learn from one another
and it was a very happy memory that day
and it's just a great day of Christian
Brotherhood and mutual support you know
there are a lot of people I think who
are listening to this who are going to
end up talking to someone who is if not
burned-out someone who is just overtaxed
and and tired and exhausted and all
sorts of different situations so you
think about when I walked into your door
at your house that day you didn't
necessarily know what what was going on
with me but you were able to in talking
to me sort of figure it out and give
some really good counsel and very
practical advice how would someone do
that I mean what sorts of things do you
look for in someone's in someone's life
to figure out is this is this person too
busy or is this person in some other
situation how do you figure that out
yeah I mean through my own personal
experience of Bernie Russell and and
then just talking to many men and
similar situations over the years there
there are some patterns that begin to
emerge just some commonalities that
eventually once you know what to look
for they're pretty obvious and you know
I just usually walk through a few areas
just starting really with the physical
you know just things like general ill
health back pain stomach cramps and lack
of sleep then moving into the mental
realm you know like a concentration
being distracted maybe obsessive
thoughts but negative and they just go
through a range of things and emotions
relations work what's happening at work
moral issues spiritual and very rarely
does someone light up on every single
one of these but I think just trying to
help
means the objective reality because
sometimes you know we men especially see
like your sales Russell you're very
strong-willed determined and disciplined
we can push ourselves even when we've
got warning signs and so I think
sometimes just a just to you know hit
the buffer pause and and begin to look
at things with the help of someone
usually alongside you does just to help
us be honest and and and of course you
need some as you mentioned earlier
vulnerability a humility to just say
okay you know um speak into my life and
help me to hear now you mentioned men
does it does this sort of thing tend to
exhibit itself differently often in men
and women in terms of how they how they
experience the sort of exhaustion or
burnout there's some overlap mm maybe
50% overlap buds there's another 50
percent that's pretty gender or specific
both in causes and symptoms and and
cures as well so yeah I think you've
you've got to be sensitive to the
differences that God has built
into us and for that reason I think your
men are usually better at helping men
and women are usually better at helping
women and my wife my wife wrote a
similar book called refresh because we
felt that women needed as well and yeah
you know the man's food just didn't
quite hit that sport yeah yeah
now you mentioned in the book you're
really really helpful II you sort of go
through a page after page of warning
signs of ways to look at one's life and
and to try to discern whether or not
one's in a in a danger pattern here when
it comes to to burning out well what are
some of the warning signs that someone
should look for yeah it varies depending
on each man there again that's overlap
but I think we've always got to be
conscious we're dealing with very unique
individuals so not everyone fits the
same pattern but what I've noticed in
men is you know what's usually sacrifice
is sleep a weekly day off and timing
with your wife you know dates or you
know time with family and even just
simply things like anger I think if
there's a uniquely male manifestation of
brno stress you know depression anxiety
it's probably anger irrational excessive
anger over you know minor things and you
when I've walked me through this what
usually happens is by the end of the men
are sort of sitting there were that eyes
popping and their mouths open like wow I
did not realize I was so unhealthy but
it's sort of an honesty shake yeah and
again you know like minute rustle you
don't ministry such an enjoyable job
yeah it's so satisfying and and so that
energy can keep us going beyond our
human limits yeah yeah now
you you mentioned in in terms of these
warning signs in you you referenced it
just a few minutes ago some exhibitions
of anger or irritability or of or
frustration how can someone tell whether
or not that's a manifestation of
something external going on in one's
life that needs to be altered and if
that's just a as the as the New
Testament put it a quarrelsome person
for whom that's really a deep-seated
moral and spiritual issue how does one
discern that yeah I usually try and talk
of three dimensions so you know okay
you've got all these warning signs but
you're looking at length how long does
it go on for you're looking at braids so
how many of these do you have if you've
only got one it's unlikely that your
burned out or stressed for example yeah
and also death haven't came so hot how
concentrated are these experiences so
yeah we all have bad days we all have
weaknesses in our temperament but I
think if you use these dimensional
aspects you begin to get a better handle
on just what is yeah just part of our
sinful humanity and what is no into the
realm of a problem that is is beginning
to incapacitate as or destroyers or
others in our lives
mm-hmm and I think I think you should
you think you're right that you should
take into account temperament so for
instance I'm somebody who's never had a
problem with anger I don't lose my
temper or don't I think that people
around me would would say that they
don't see me angry and and upset and
yelling at people or anything like that
but one time my fourth son when he was
really really little he may have been in
kindergarten he and he is the he is
temperamental II the most easygoing warm
jovial one of all of my children and
and he said he was talking about
something that his teacher had said in
class and he said I just smiled and
nodded but I thought on the inside we'll
see about that and I thought that's me
often that's the way that frustration
manifests itself it's not in some
visible temper but there's a there's an
inner sort of numbness that can come
about and I think they're probably a lot
of people who are like that that would
think well I'm not sort of falling to
pieces the way that some people I've
seen in my life have instead I'm just
numb yeah I mean Russell before I met
you I honestly I used to watch your
ministry online and and CNN and places
that I don't think how does he do it
like how do you maintain unfeeling
cheerfulness in there in the face of
just onslaught and controversy and you
know fighting for the truth and God is
definitely giving you a calling and a
temperament that matches really really
well and I think you're actually quite
unique in that there aren't many like
you and yes so your array your
manifestation of this is going to be
different but I would still say that's
quite rare I think the majority of men
are are more on the irritable angry side
of the spectrum as a result of burnout
and stress but yeah I think to be
sensitive to the unique way God has made
us and yeah maybe it'll manifest itself
in different areas of life and different
ways yeah you know it's it's something
that you you talk about later on in the
book about people-pleasing and I really
paid attention to that section because
that's a that's a weakness and the
vulnerability for for me is the sense of
wanting to be received wanting to be
accepted by people and that can be
an exhausting sort of life regardless of
whether people receive you or they don't
it's still equally exhausting in some
ways because if if somebody's given two
or people-pleasing and doesn't please
people then they feel as though their
life is is a wreck and if they do please
people then that becomes their
employment is in in is in pleasing
people and of course as followers of
Jesus Christ we're called to please him
and but that's hard to do how does
somebody sort of try to evaluate am i
unduly in in bondage to a
people-pleasing sort of mentality and if
so how do I start to to get over that
yeah we we all to one degree or another
struggle with us and I think it's
spatially in ministry if we are so much
of your effectiveness depends on your
ability to connect with people and keep
relationships going then we are probably
particularly vulnerable to that and I
think the for myself at least Russell
and I can't speak to this and for
everyone but I've noticed for myself
that my my people-pleasing tends to
really grow and strengthen the the
further I am away from a daily constant
connection with God
and you know just trying to live that
coram deal life life before God not just
you know having a personal devotional
time and going to church fair actually
trying to live that whole life in in the
feet of the Lord which is the beginning
of wisdom and and building that God
consciousness so God becomes big and
people become smaller and and I don't
think that makes you careless about
people's thoughts towards you in their
feelings towards you but it just gets
the priority right mm-hmm
so I don't know what you've found
Russell as a helper that's I know for
myself when I
falling into that bondage it's time for
me to really work on that daily
connection and communion with God ooh
there are what are some ways that you
would recommend to do that how do you
make sure that you are in in the Word of
God that you're you're regularly praying
that your prayer life doesn't become
stale and rote
well what are some suggestions you might
have for people yeah I suppose I'm a
method guy I can't rely on spontaneity
and sort of flashes of inspiration
rarely in my life so I have to build a
fairly regulated approach to this which
can can become legalistic if you later
but I don't think it needs to become
legalistic so yeah I would I would want
to start the day with God and that means
before the internet before email before
social media I've noticed a huge
difference in my day if I get that order
right and for both good and ill and
again talking to a lot of men through
the years that is often where it goes
wrong from the very beginning just that
you know it's it's if every day we start
with a blank sheet and and what is the
first impress that goes on in the day is
really as stamps the day whether it's
the world or the word and so that's when
I begin and then I've just tried to
sometimes I've done even ridiculous
things that may seem to some people but
set an alarm and my phone so that you
know every hour
I'm remaindered okay just even take a
minute to pray and reconnect with God or
I associate that with say having a
coffee what you do far too much through
the day but the benefit is you begin to
pray more and so for me I vow it was
someone if I if I start if I start to do
that and pray every time I have coffee I
am going to be a prayer warrior for sure
that is a good suggestion or let me out
on one more and again this is what I'm
working on just know
when ever I go to social media Twitter
Facebook whatever I'm either replacing
that with prayer or preceding it with
prayer and again it's not about praying
about going on to social media but it's
just using that as a trigger a bad habit
as it where to trigger a good habit yeah
now a lot of I'm actually surprised you
brought up social media I'm surprised by
when I'm talking to people and
encouraging people behind closed doors
whether in ministry or not I'm surprised
at how often social media is actually at
the forefront of of that sort of burnout
and exhaustion and that really it seems
to apply to people no matter what their
situation is I've talked to a pastor who
is really just beaten down because he
has people in this church who were sort
of constantly critiquing him on social
media and so he's kind of constantly
watching that in a way that's they
stopped even looking at it or I've had
people who don't have anything like that
going on but they're just watching what
is happening in other people's lives and
start to feel empty about their own life
how should somebody start to figure out
how to manage social media in a way
that's healthy
without leading to something bad yeah
that's a great question and it's a
challenge as you said it's facing not
just ministry leaders but you know men
women kids everywhere I think it's
largely the the greatest cause of
anxiety in depression in teens today I
would trace to social media mm-hmm I
think that the data supports that we
were never designed to know so much you
are we were just God never meant us to
have so much information and our daily
lives if you actually look at the the
gigabytes of information that we
processed each day compared to even 20
years ago it's of a magnitude of
something like 9 or 10 times more and
and we just haven't become bigger
brained people we're just squeezing a
lot more in there and it's and it's also
bit the quality of the information
that's going in there if it was all the
Word of God or good bugs or good
podcasts um you know that's that's one
thing but it's not as just it's the
trivia it's the false it's the fake and
it's it's really devastating not just a
spiritual health as you said but mental
health you know emotional health
relational health and thankfully I mean
the secular world is I think ahead of us
here in a way they are I've seen
increasingly endeavours to really get
this under control and and and get some
good habits in life I think future
generations will look back in our
generation and just think you were mad
you know you were absolutely crazy to
think that you could live life like that
and go off with it so as what's a good
help so there Lurky chin level the take
wife's family has been a big help to me
and my family that's by Andy Cruz I
think so I would just stopped a simple
book like that and and really implement
his 10 commitments one by one and I
think you need your whole family on
board and try and you'll lead your home
to digital health and through that
emotional and spiritual health to what
would you advise to parents or maybe I
mean we have people who listen to this
who are teenagers themselves and we have
others who are parents of teenagers
often it seems that that sort of
performance kind of mentality I have to
achieve I have to accomplish up to win
it starts there if not before so what
would you say to someone who is or who
who is parenting a teenager to say
here's how you you get a hold of that
now
I think it actually starts with the
parents rustle the the pressure the good
pianist the base pianist the based
intention parents are putting their kids
under yeah is it's beyond it's
intolerable I mean I when I when I was
growing up well that's only thirty forty
years ago I think it's you know the it's
not exactly it may be evil teams I think
I had only two seasons of exams and my
whole year at school so Christmas time
in summertime yeah in between same
Harley to any quizzes tastes assessment
so I'd really only two peaks in my year
no I look at my kids going through
school get to grown-up boys but two teen
ghettos at the moment every single D
they have to be on their game yeah for
school as taste and quizzes and exams
and assessments GPA constantly at the
forefront of their minds and and I think
parents can sometimes be partly to blame
for that um you know the pressure being
put on them to exhale and you know get
scholarships and it's not enough even to
get a four point four four point five
you know you gotta be in sports you've
got to be doing volunteer work you've
gotta be involved in the school you're
trying to build this raise with me to
get into college and it's just no wonder
that they're crumbling and I think
there's a big responsibility and parents
to really take the pressure off to give
unconditional love and acceptance
regardless of GPA and results and assure
them God will look after you God will
take care of you work within your human
limits and trust God and then yeah so
then it becomes an exercise of faith
yeah
you know one of the best things for me
has been and as I look back over the
last couple of years I can say this is
one of the greatest blessings to me when
it comes to to managing this sort of
thing is a small group of friends we get
together actually we we just we just got
together night before last we do about
it you know every week or so or two
or so and right now where this sounds
really nerdy but we're nerds
right now we're eating through TS
Eliot's Four Quartets and you know
taking a taking one each each time and
and and talking about it but we always
deviate off into all sorts of other
things that's one of the things that I'm
the kind of person who typically if
there's some sort of obligation or event
or what and it gets cancelled I'm kind
of relieved because I have that time the
fact to do it I want if that ever gets
cancelled I'm kind of crushed and it's a
it's a situation where yeah I'm the only
non singer/songwriter in this group of
five or six guys and and so it's a
really busy group of people touring and
doing trying to find the time together
to do that it's hard but we do it and
that is something I wouldn't give
anything for but I think that there are
a lot of people especially men for whom
finding friendship especially the older
they get in life is really difficult do
you have any any words of counsel or
advice for someone who would say I
really do need those sorts of
friendships and relationships but I
don't know how to start yeah I've got a
chapter and we stay on relationships
because I found myself I sacrificed
friendships in the past for the sake of
ministry opportunities and just
realizing that although you have a very
happy marriage took a wonderful wife I
do need men in my life and I've made a
much bigger effort to do that and for me
a lot of it's actually been through
fishing um you know going up north and
Michigan and usually not with Christians
actually just you know you know Michigan
man your classic um sort of even
working-class Democrat Roman Catholic
you probably the the Trump voters you
know that have come over to trump that
kind of em demographic it's really good
for me to mix with non
in Christians non-academics I don't have
to perform I'm not there for counseling
I'm not there to minister I just
it's just main being main and just
relaxing and an on the river and God's
creation with with people that are just
salt of the earth
you know just plastic patriotic
Americans and I think that just so
incredibly refreshing and I really it's
not as it's not a disappoint for me to
do used to be like you got to force
yourself to go and do this David didn't
say more never I need a and I know I
can't survive without hurt I have a
friend who was participating in a
volunteer fire department where nobody
else there was a Christian and he built
these really really strong and solid
relationships and he was able to be it
was good for him and he also was was
able to be in a situation where he
wasn't known as a minister and know what
he did so it didn't put those those
barriers up until he was preaching at a
church and one of these guys wife had
brought him along with her and he
suddenly saw him and thought oh no it
thought back to everything he had said
in front of it and so forth and it was a
but that was the way that he he found to
come in and to and to to sort of
disconnect himself from his role yeah
relieving yeah and you know fishings
might be but there's lots of ways to do
that one of my friends that started
doing martial arts locally and just been
a great way to you get the physical
exercise he gets tame with his sons he's
making some progress and something he's
learning but most of all it's just
people who would not normally be mixing
with and I think that is really key
especially for ministry leaders to get
over Christian bauble and and just get
amongst people the and it enriches your
ministry too it's not totally detached
you come back to ministry a weight of
need far more
and you know forced to connect with
different language and it's just it's a
very wholesome edifying relationship
that can be built well the book is reset
living a grace based life in a Burnout
culture by david murray i really really
recommend this book to you and refresh
by his wife Shawna as well and so check
those books out I think they could
really really be helpful to you now or
in the future or in helping you to sort
of bear with and carry the burdens of
somebody that you love david murray
thanks for being with us today
thanks so much Russell it's a pleasure
this is Russell Maureen you've been
listening to signposts
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